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Interview Transcripts

These are the transcripts of our interviews.

Junshin Daigaku Interview with Professor Miyazaki | Junshin Daigaku Continued | Goto Islands with Mr. Izumi | Goto Islands Continued

 

Nagasaki Junshin Daigaku

16:24

Professor Miyazaki: ... to a certain extent that's true. So even if we were able to to talk to them, we would have a hard time understanding what they have to say. And also, since they are already 80 or 90 years old, so they are not used to this type of research so if you ask them these types of questions, they may have a hard time understanding what exactly you are trying to ask them. You'd really have to get to know them first, for instance by sitting down and eating a meal with them and talk about regular things and then you would start to understand each other, but if all of the sudden you approached them and said, "Hi, I'm from America, I'd like to interview you. What do you think about this?" They would have a pretty hard time understanding what you are trying to ask them. So if you suddenly approach them and ask them questions, you wouldn't be able to get a natural, correct and honest answer. It's also difficult since there are a lot of delicate subjects so if you really want to know about them, you would probably need to spend about a month getting to know them.

Erin: I was thinking today, since the time we have might not be enough, since I don't have any plans in the states, if necessary I could stay a little longer in Japan.

Prof. Miyazaki: Well in that case, you should still first go to Ikitsuki and talk with the people there and perhaps you will think, "Wow, this is something I'd really like to spend time researching" or maybe you will think, "This is a little from what I was expecting." In any case, in Ikitsuki, there are still young people who could answer questions you have to fit your needs. In the Goto Islands and Sotome, this is no longer possible. So if you were to do field work, Ikitsuki would be the place. For museums and artifacts, the Goto Islands are also a good place. On Goto there is the Dozaki Christian Resource Center, which is also a Church. Do you know of it?

Naoya asks group

Prof. Miyazaki: You mentioned that you will be going to the Goto Islands, but do you have a plan of where you will be going and what you will be seeing when you get there? Any lists?

Naoya: Besides the Dozaki Church we have no other plans since we only have a day.

Prof. Miyazaki: Oh, you only have one day? Just one night? In that case you will probably only be visiting Fukue Island. Do you have any sort of guide book?

Brendan: Yes.

20:09

Prof. Miyazaki: This is regarding the history with China, such as the six sided well and the Ming dynasty... oh here is the Dozaki Church... one day only...

21:19

Prof. Miyazaki: ... From what i've seen, since quite awhile ago, there is no record of the Kakure Kirishitans saying, "This is what our religion is about, you (children) must understand this and also follow in our footsteps." The teachings are almost mysteriously absent.

Erin: Was it always that way?

Prof. Miyazaki: A main reason being is because they do not have a Dogma. Just customs, only these customs and traditions which can be seen.

Erin: So have the traditions or customs stayed fairly the same over the years?

Prof. Miyazaki: The Kakure Kirishitan's customs? Unique customs?

Erin: Yes

Prof. Miyazaki: There have definitely been some changes, especially when comparing before WWII and post-WWII. Japan itself, its society, culture and religion, particularly after 1960, the societal structure underwent a complete change. Before then, there were not many instances of people from the countryside such as places like the Goto Islands or Ikitsuki going to the large cities. However, after the war, most of the young people all started to go to the large cities and in the countryside, only old men and women remained. That's the kind of generation it became.

Erin: Regarding that last topic, I was also interested in what effects modernization has had on the Hidden Christians.

Prof. Miyazaki: So, one reason is the change in societal structure. One of the largest reasons the Hidden Christians is failing to continue is that due to the change in societal structure, there are fewer and fewer younger people, which then leads to having no one to receive and keep the tradition going. This is very simple yes? Since there are no people. Finally, one more factor is that the way of thinking regarding religion, also changed drastically. These two are probably the main reasons for the Hidden Christian's decline.

Erin: I've read about that before.

Prof. Miyayaki: Well, since tomorrow and the day after I will have to go to Shimane Prefecture, and I'll be leaving on the 10th, and returning at night on the 17th which is a Sunday, if I don't ask them right now, I won't be able to introduce you to them. The office is open until 5PM, so that means we'll have to call before 5PM and since I have to leave tomorrow morning at 7AM, unless we contact them now, we won't be able to get a response. In any case, Ikitsuki should be fine since there are plenty of people I know there. Goto Islands on the other hand, there aren't as many. I'm going to make a quick call to the Goto Islands Education Committee.

26:35

Naoya: There are a few questions we'd like to ask you. First, is regarding the Baptism.

27:28

Naoya: Baptism (Senrei)? Or is it Baptesma?

Prof. Miyazaki: They refer to it as the Osazuke.

Naoya: What is the reason for the decline of the Ozasuke?

Prof. Miyzaki: Well firstly, according them (Kakures), if one receives the Osazuke, then when they die, a ceremony called the Modoshi (the return) must also be conducted. In other words, upon receiving the Christian Osazuke, I mean, the Kakure Osazuke, a Kakure Funeral Ceremony must also be observed. However, if the Osazuke is now conducted, by the time that child dies, there is a possibility that there will be no more Kakure Kirishitan's around to conduct the Kakure Funeral Ceremony, which would put the child in an unfavorable position. So the first reason is that it will cause trouble for the child who receives the Osazuke since there will be no one to conduct the Burial Ceremony for them. Another reason is that, for most people, in reality, continuing the Kakure tradition is quite a burden. So there are some that feel that if it is possible to stop, they would like to. However, they feel that they should at least do they best to honor the tradition until at least their father's and mother's generations have passed, but for their own children, they don't feel as if they can force them to continue the Kakure tradition. Their children have basically become proper Buddhists, normal Buddhists and normal Shintoists. So they cannot force them to practice the ways of the Kakure on top of that, because in a sense, many of them would also like to stop. Most of them would like to stop because they already consider themselves Buddhists or Shintoists so there is no need for the Kakure religion. They would not have any problems without it. Although most other people assume that for Kakure Kirishitan, Christianity is the true religion and Buddhism is just a dummy religion, the Buddhism is just a front, but in fact this is not the case. The Kakure Kirishitan worship the Buddha, and Buddhist figures, as well as Shinto gods, they way they have always cherished them, so they worship them from the heart. All are worshiped from the heart. So, it is not necessary to have this many gods is it? And to keep worshiping the Kakure Kirishitan god is very difficult, since there are plenty of complicated things. The people of the past genuinely believe that having plenty of gods would bring them plenty of happiness, but nowadays people that would believe such thing are very few in numbers. Which in that case, this type of religion would be useless. Their thought was that, "We'll continue it through our generation, but we don't want to force our kids to continue." It's not possible, even if they wanted to, the kids will not do it. As a result, the Ozauke also became deemed unnecessary by most of the Kakure.

31:38

Naoya：What did the other missionaries think of Valeniano's approach of adapting to Japanese culture?

Prof. Miyazaki: What they thought... Well the Jesuits, who first brought Christianity to Japan felt that the cultural levels of China and Japan were very high, in comparison to for instance, India or Central/South America. Because of this, they felt they could not force European culture upon the Japanese, and Chinese. In India, Central/South America and Africa, they thought the cultural level was lower, so they told them to throw their own cultures away and to take on the much more "magnificent" European culture. For instance, regarding the the Indian gods, African gods, Central/South American gods, they would say, "These are all useless so get rid of them." However, regarding Japan, because they felt the cultural level was higher, they allowed them to keep many aspects of it. The Jesuits including Variano believed that, while it was important to maintain that Christ is most certainly God, the rest of Japanese culture was to be preserved, and that it was important to try to work Christianity as much as possible into Japanese culture, at least as much as the two could work together, where there were no conflicts in belief. China was pretty much the same. So, regarding your question, for instance the way the Augustinians, Franciscans or the Dominicans, missionaries viewed this approach, while there is not much of a record, from what I feel... to be frank, I've never been asked a question such as this and it hasn't been written in books... but since there haven't been instances of other sects forcing the Japanese to throw their culture out, so I think like the Jesuits, they must have admitted to the value of Japanese culture to a certain level.

35:05

Naoya: Do you think the Japanese realized this attitude towards them, or were they initially told to throw away their culture and resisted resulting in the Jesuit's way of thinking?

Prof. Miyazaki: Well, for the most part, the Japanese did not really take notice of how the Europeans viewed and thought of their culture. However, if like in Central/South America, they forced the Japanese to throw their culture away, for instance, if Xavier or the Jesuits took that sort of approach, the Jesuit's would've been driven out of Japan much earlier. The Japanese probably would not have accepted that. If one-sidedly, Xavier and Variano said that the Japanese culture is bad and needs to be thrown out, the Japanese would not have responded by saying, "Yes! That's absolutely correct. Let's throw it away!" I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have said that. So Xavier and Variano were aware that if they said anything alone those lines, it would be attacking the one thing that Japanese value the most, their pride. Saying their culture is not worthy would be disrespecting their honor and they would never accept this sort of thing. Variano immediately understood that this was something they could not say to the Japanese, and if they did, they would immediately be asked to leave. So as much as possible, they took the attitude of saying "that's nice" (submissive gesture).

36:57

Naoya: Regarding the Oratio, what kind of functions or purposes did it serve? I read somewhere that was used at times to erase the effects of the Sutra?

Brendan: It seemed to me that the Oratio had become a way to cleanse oneself from what had happened in the Sutras and I was wondering if it would be possible to explain that in more detail... It says that it was used after Buddhist funerals to erase the effects of it and I'd like to know how that changed because it differs from the original usage of Oratio.

40:35

Naoya: After the funeral ceremonies, specifically after the Buddhist funeral, during the Christian funeral, they would conduct the Oratio, correct? Were these Oratios in Japanese, what I mean to ask is where they created by the Kakure Kirishitan?
41:00

Prof. Miyazaki: So you are asking if the Oratio used during the Funeral Ceremony was created by the Kakure Kirishitan?

Naoya: Yes, the one directly following the Buddhist funeral ceremony.

Prof. Miyazaki: There was an Oratio called the Sutra erasing Oratio.

Naoya: And was this Oratio created by the Kakure Kirishitan?

41:21
Prof. Miyazaki: Well, there were two types. Ones was the "Real" Oratio which was passed down by the missionaries. They would sing this one while praying to erase the effects of the Sutra. There was also one that they created themselves which was also to erase the power of the Sutra. So there were two different types.

Naoya: So there two types, and the one learned from the missionaries was all in Latin?

Prof. Miyazaki: No, not entirely. The Latin parts only comprised of 10-20%. The rest was in Japanese.

Naoya: I see.

Prof. Miyazaki: An Oratio entirely in Latin, for the Japanese back then, would be quite a difficult... maybe one or two would have been possible but an Oratio entirely in Latin would not have been.

Naoya: But even now, there are some remnants of Latin...

Prof. Miyazaki: Yes, even now there are a few in Latin, maybe three or four.

Naoya: And, while there is a little variation, are there any which the Latin can be picked out?

Prof. Miyazaki: Well, there will be a series of words and there among those words, there will be bits and pieces of Latin, or sometimes Portuguese. There are many with bits and pieces spread within.

Naoya: Do you have any recordings of the Oratio?

Prof. Miyazaki: I have a CD recording, which I could let you copy. Do you have a audio recorder with you? Well you can also purchase it in Ikitsuki.

Naoya: Oh, they sell it in Ikitsuki?

Prof. Miyazaki: Yes, they sell it in Ikitsuki as well. At their Museum, the Shimano Yakata. It is probably around 3000 Yen. Maybe it will be a good resource for you to purchase.

44:29

Naoya: I'd like to ask you a little about the Oyaji role.

Prof. Miyazaki: Please hold on a second, since it is 4:40.

End of Tape 3

Top

Nagasaki Jyunshin University continued:

Naoya: Regarding the Oyaji-yaku, how related are the ceremonies they conduct with Shinto-ism?

直矢：オヤジ役の事ですが、オヤジ役が行う式とかは神道教とどれくらい関係ありますか？

Prof. Miyazaki: Their relation in comparison to Shinto?

宮崎先生：神道とどれくらい関係があるか？

Naoya: Yes.

直矢：はいはい

Prof. Miyazaki: From what I've seen, the Kakure Kirishitan functions are almost 100 percent Shinto style. This is because Christianity first enters Japan from here yes? And the Japanese were able to accept it to a certain level, but then there was a persecution. Because of this, after 1644 there are no missionaries or people to lead the believers. So from then on, they are left by themselves, and do not really have a deep understanding of Christian dogma, which results in not knowing less and less how to conduct the ceremonies. While they'd like to learn how to conduct the ceremonies, there is no one to teach them since they have to hide the fact that they are Christian. Obviously they can't go out in public and ask, "Can anyone teach us how?" So they have to think of and create a way themselves. In creating this, there's no way it is 100% invented or thought up themselves, there has to be a model. What they used as a model is Shinto, which surrounded them. While Buddhism was available through relation with the temples, their folk religion, Shinto, was their indigenous religion that they felt most close to. Because of this, they gradually borrowed and incorporated aspects of Shinto into their Christian ceremonies.

宮崎先生：私が見るには、もう隠れキリシタンの行事はほとんどもう百パーセント近く神道スタイルですね。何故ならば、キリスト教がまず日本にこう入ってくるでしょ？そして、日本人にある程度受けられるけど、迫害がある。そして、宣教師、指導する人、信者を指導する人は誰もね、１６４４年から誰もいなくなる。ここはもう自分達で、日本人の、そしてキリスト教のドグマについてよく知らない信者だけになるでしょ？　そうすると、どうやって自分達のセレモニーを続けていったらいいか段々解らなくなる。　そしたら誰かに習いたいけど、教えてくれる人はいない。　自分たちはキリシタンだと言う事は隠さないといけないから。　公に、パブリックに、「教えてください、どうしたらいいですか？」と言う事は聞けないね。自分たちだけで考えるしかない。自分たちで作り上げるしかない。そうした時には、百パーセント自分たちでインベンションする訳ね、想像する訳にいかないから、何かをモデルにして作る、しかない。　何をモデルにするか、彼らの身の回りにあったのは、これは神道です。　身の回りにある物は神道、仏教は、まあもちろん、お寺とも関係があるけど、そのフォルクレリジオン、彼らの土着の一番彼らの身の回りに身近に彼らが本当に知っている宗教と言うのはフォルクレリジオンです。　フォルクレリジオン、これは神道です。　そうすると、段々と隠れキリシタンのセレモニーはもうほとんど神道からもらう、こう言う事になります。

2:52

Naoya: Before the arrival of the Catholic missionaries, Buddhism and Shinto were already in practice in Japan. Why then, did Japanese people choose to follow Christianity?

直矢：宣教師が来る前に、もう日本に神道と仏教がありましたね。　それなのに、何故日本人はキリスト教を選ぶようになったんですか？

Prof. Miyazaki: We are actually discussing the same question in one of my classes. When Christianity came to Japan, and there were tens of thousands of people who converted, 450,000 at the peak, but when we say there was an increase in Christians, does that mean that 450,000 were just Baptized without understanding, or did they really comprehend the meaning of Christianity and then receive Baptism? This is something that I still have doubts about. Can we call ourselves Christian just by pouring water on our heads? There are many Buddhists in Japan, yes? If we pour water on their heads, will they wake up tomorrow and be genuine Christians? It doesn't work that way does it? Whether you are Christian or not is not determined by whether or not you received Baptism. It's determined by how much you know and understand Christianity before you receive Baptism, and you genuinely feel it "A wonderful thing". This is is necessary to be a real Christian. So while there are many people that had water poured on their heads, the number of people that really understood the meaning of Christianity and compared it to the Buddhism and Shinto that they had practiced before, and felt that "Christianity he better religion as I had thought, it is so Wonderful" so I will throw away Buddhism and Shinto, people that thought this far were most likely less than a hundred in one and probably less than a thousand in one. I think there weren't even a thousand in one people who really converted to Christianity. I won't say it was zero, but less than one percent. So why were there so many people that converted? Well first off, there were the Christian Daimyo, who were motivated by money because they were essentially politicians, so there were political reasons, and during this time all the Daimyo were involved in war, yes? Which requires money, yes? Well the easiest way to bring in money was.... (Telephone rings).

宮崎先生：ちょうど今授業でそういう話をしてるんです。　キリスト教が入って来た時、そして急に沢山何十万人も一番多いと時では４５万人くらいね、キリスタンの数が増えたんだけど、しかし、キリスタンの数が増えたって言う時に、どれくらい洗礼を受けた人が、４５万人信者が一番多い時に増えたけど、洗礼を受けたと言うけども、本当にどれだけキリスト教の事を理解して洗礼を受けたか、私は、大変疑問なんです。我々は頭から水さい被ればそれで本当にキリスト教と言えますか？　日本に沢山仏教の人いますね。　あの人達に頭から水をかけただけで、次の日から本当にキリスト教になりますか？　そうじゃないでしょ？　キリスト教になるかどうかは洗礼を受けたかどうかじゃない。　洗礼を受ける前にどれだけキリスト教の事を理解して、知って、そして本当に心から、「ああ、素晴らしい」と思うかという。　これが必要ね、本当のキリスト教になるには。　だけども、頭から水を被った人は沢山いる。　洗礼を受けた人は沢山いるけど、本当にキリスト教の教えを理解して、そして今までの自分達の仏教とか神道と比べて、「ああ、やっぱりキリスト教の方がいいじゃないか、素晴らしい」だから仏教をすてる、神道をすてて、ここまで本当に考えた人は、まあ１００人に一人もいないし、恐らく１０００人に一人も、本当にキリスト教にコンバージョンした人は、私は１０００人に一人もいないと思う。　ゼロじゃないね、だけど、１パーセントもいない。　じゃなぜ沢山の人がキリスト教になったか。　これはまず、切支丹大名というキリスト教のね、大名はやっぱりお金の事、ポリティシャンだから、政治の事で、この当時の大名は戦争ばかりでしょ？　お金がいるでしょ？　そうすると、どうしたらお金がすぐに簡単にもうかると言うと、（電話がなる）

5:40

Prof. Miyazaki: So the Daimyo were all involved in war, so they want money. In order to get money, they trade with Christians. So if they ensure that the trade comes through their territory, and the ships use their ports for trade, they will be able to earn a lot of money. However, during this period, the boats that were involved in trade, would always come have a missionary on board. In order to make sure that the trading ships would definitely come to their city, they became Christian. This is the most certain way. Because of this reason, Nagasaki's Daimyo, Omura Sumitada, Japan's first Christian Daimyo, ordered his whole household and Samurai under him that "You must all become Christians." Then as a result, all of the public officials and people below them would also become Christians. The city of Nagasaki was the territory of Omura, so this resulted in 100% of the people living in Nagasaki to become Christians. So that is what happened with the Daimyo. Hold on a sec, what was the question again?

宮崎先生：大名は、みんな戦争してるからね、お金が欲しい、その為には、キリスト教と、一緒に貿易をする。　そしたら必ず自分の場所、自分の国に船が入って、貿易をしてもらえば、沢山お金が入る訳ね。　でも、この当時の貿易をする船は、必ず宣教師と一緒にやって来る。　その為に、貿易をする船を確実に呼ぶ為には自分がキリシタンになる。これが一番確実な方法ね。という訳でこの長崎の大名だったのは、大村純忠（おおむらすみだだ）という人ね。　でこの人が日本で最初に切支丹大名になって、そして自分の家来、侍に「お前達もみんなキリシタンになりなさい」。　そしたらお役所さんとか、その下の人たちも全部キリシタンになる。　だから長崎の町は大村の領地、大村の場所だった。　だから長崎の町に住んでた人は、全部、１００パーセントキリシタンになった。　まあそういう事で、ちょっとまって、質問をもう一回。

7:15

Naoya: Why did the Japanese receive and take in Christianity?

直矢：何故日本人がキリスト教を受け取ったか？

Prof. Miyazaki: Well, it is possible that there were some who really understood Christianity and converted, for instance Takayama Ukon. Takayama Ukon understood Christianity to a certain extent and genuinely converted from his heart. But that is pretty rare, an exception. Most of the people pretty much automatically converted because of political or economic reasons and didn't really understand what Christianity was, but received Baptism. However they are still called Christians. So in reality I think that while it's said that around 450,000, a great amount of Japanese converted to Christianity, the actual number of people that became Christians is quite small.

宮崎先生：で、まあ、本当にキリスト教の教えを理解して、入った人もいなくはないかもしれないけど、例えば、高山右近ね、高山右近なんかは、ある程度よくキリスト教が解って、本当に心からキリスト教にコンバージョンした。　でもそれは、珍しいね、エクセプションね。で多くの人はだだそうやってオートマティッカリに政治の問題とかお金の問題とかと言う事で、本当のキリスト教が何かと言う事も解らないで、洗礼を受けた。　でもキリシタンと呼ばれる。　だから本当にはね、４５万も沢山日本人がキリスト教になったと言うけど、本当にキリスト教になったのはもうちょっとしかいないね、と私は思うんですね。　

Naoya: But considering that even while not fully understanding the Dogma, wasn't there something that kept them going despite all of the dangers?

直矢：でも、それほどドグマの事を知らない割には、危ない事を乗り越えたのはやっぱり何かがあったのでは？

8:38

Prof. Miyazaki: Well during the persecution of Christianity, it wasn't that they really understood the meaning of Christianity and didn't want to throw it away, but actually they viewed Christianity as a sort of magical religion. And to most Japanese, the Christian God, was not seen as a new God from European Christianity but a separate god of a new type of Buddhism that came over from India. They viewed this new god as being even more powerful than the older buddhist god. To them, this so-called Christ, or Deus, a separate Buddhist entity, had more power so if they prayed to it, they'd be even more fortunate and happy, and healthier, and richer, and would be able to reap all types of fish or more rice. They thought it had this mysterious power, and if they prayed to it, there would be good things. This is the type of god they saw and believed in. So they feared that if they rid themselves of this god they would be struck will illnesses or suffer other bad consequences. Moreover, this god was one that their mother, father, and grandparents all told them was "a very important god" therefore their descendants were not able to neglect something that was so important to their ancestors. So it really was not because they saw and understood what Christ was about the way we do now, and decided not to reject his teachings. The way I see it, they believed this god, this "Christian" god, really had a lot of power, more power than the gods that they had worshiped before. So, if they threw away this powerful god, they would suffer even larger calamity, divine punishment, and bad consequences. This is what they were most afraid of. Even now, the reason the Ikitsuki Christians don't stop their practice is because they are afraid of the divine punishment (tatari). The truly believe that if they stop, they may fall ill, or die. It's not because they don't want to get rid of Christianity but they are afraid of the "Tatari". They believe that if they get rid of the god, something bad will happen which is why they don't stop.

宮崎先生：と言う事はね、キリスト教を迫害の時代になって、本当にキリスト教の事を理解してキリスト教の事を捨てたくなかったんじゃなくって、キリスト教と言うのはある一種のね呪術、マジカルな、マジカルレリジオンなのね、そうするに、キリスタンの神様、これは本当はね日本人の多くはヨーロッバのキリスト教のまったく新しい神じゃなくて、インドから伝わって来た仏教の別の、ニューブディズムの神様だと、こうゆう風に考えていた。　でその新しい神様は、それまでの仏教の神様よりも、もっとパワフルね、力が。　そのキリストと言う、ま、デウスと言う神を、ま、仏教のね、別の神様だけど、もっとパワフル、だったらそれにお願いしたらもっと幸せになる、病気にならない、お金が儲かる、色んな魚が取れる、お米が取れる、そういう不思議な力、お願いすれば、そういういい事がある、そんな神様だと、こう言う風に信じてた。　だからそれを捨てたら病気になったり、色んな悪いことが起きる、これが怖かった。　そして、自分達のお父さんとか、お母さんとか、おじいちゃんとか、「これ大事な神様だ！」っていうふうにして、したから、その子孫、子孫の人たちは、その自分の先祖、が大事にした物は、そまつにできないね。　でも本当にその、今私たちが考えるキリストと言う事を考えてそれが解ってて、それを捨てたくなくて、捨てなかったと言う、これではないと思う。　私が何故捨てなかったと言うと、その神様、キリスタンと言う神様は、本当に力がある、いままで自分達が、お願いしてた神様より、もっともっと力がある。　だからそれを捨てたら、今度は逆に、大きな災い、祟り、悪い事がある。　それが怖かった。　今の、生月の隠れキリシタンたちも、やめないのは、祟りが怖いから。　やめると、病気になったり死んだり、すると本当に信じてる。　キリスト教、キリストを捨てたくなくてやめないんじゃなくて、祟りが怖いから。　その神様を捨てたら、悪い事が起きる、と本当に信じてる。　だからやめない。　

11:50

Erin: On top of that, its been passed down from their father and mother for a long time.

Erin: しかも、あの、お父さんと、お母さんと、ずっと伝わってるから

Prof. Miyazaki: Yes, a very old god passed down for a long time. So if they threw that away, it would be disrespectful to their ancestors. Ancestors are extremely important to the Japanese. So they cannot neglect something that was important to their ancestors.

宮崎先生：ずっとね、昔からずっと伝わって来た神だから、それを捨てたら、ええ、Ancestors, 先祖ね、先祖に申し訳ない。　日本人は先祖を非常に大事にするでしょ。　先祖が大事にした物を捨てる、粗末にする、これはだめ。　

Naoya: After the reopening of Japan, when the Catholic priests reentered Japan, I heard that there was a difference in beliefs between the Catholics and Kakure. About how many "returned" to the Catholic faith?

直矢：開国後にまたそのカトリックの宣教師か戻って来た時には隠れと宣教師に（　）の違いができましたと聞きましたけど、どのくらいカトリックに戻ったいたんですか？

Prof. Miyazaki: Well those that "returned" to the Catholic faith were mostly from the Nagasaki City center. The percentage of those that became Catholic in Urakami is said to be about half and the other half remained Kakure.

宮崎先生：えっとね、カトリックい戻った人達はほとんど長崎の市内の中心ね、でカトリックに戻った人は役、まあ浦上で半分くらいと言われてる、で半分は戻らずに隠れキリシタンになった。　

13:07
Naoya: Also, Takayama Ukon was exiled to the Philippines (Prof. Miyazaki: Yes, he was sent to Manila) Are there any places in Takatsuki that are still connected to him?

直矢：であの、高山右近とかはフィリピンに　（宮崎先生：はい、マニラに流されて）今は高槻にまだ関係ある所があるのか。。。

Prof. Miyazaki: Related to Takayama Ukon?

宮崎先生：高山右近に関係のある？

Naoya: For instance descendants?

直矢：子孫とかが戻って来たとかは？

Prof. Miyazaki: No, I don't think there's a chance of that. I've been to Takatsuki and up until the beginning of the Meiji Period, in Takatsuki there were still Senpuku Christians. There are resources, and it is clear that up until Meiji there were still old ladies that could recite the Oratio. But Takayama's descendants or anyone directly connected to Ukon does not exist.

宮崎先生：いえいえ、それは、それはないね。高槻行ったけどね、高槻にはね、明治の初め頃まで、潜伏キリシタンの人が高槻にはいたんです。　そして資料があるし、まだオラシオを覚えているおばあちゃんが明治までは高槻にいたって言うのは明らかなんです。　でも高山右近の子孫が住んでるとか、右近に直接関係のある物はもう高槻にはないですね。　

14:10

Naoya: This is the last problem, well question. What do you think of Endo Shusaku's novels (Silence, Deep River)?

直矢：最後の問題、いや質問ですが、遠藤周作の本（沈黙、深い川）とかどう思いますか。

Prof. Miyazaki: The reason I started to think about doing research on these kinds of Christians came from after reading Silence. So to me, Endo's writings are what began my research (Naoya, Prof. Entenmann: Actually me too) so to me, it is an extremely important existence, but Endo personally also could not attach himself to "pure", European Christianity. It had to be Japanese Christianity, but in Japan the number of Christians is very small. During the Edo period, the Japanese population was around 12 million and among that 450,000, just by numbers, were Christians. 450,000 Christians. And now, in the year 2000, Japan's population is over 120 million, ten times more, and this (the number of Christians) is 430,000. It's exactly like this. At the beginning of the Edo period, Japan's population was 12 million and among that there were 450,000 Christians. Now, Japan's population is just about ten times, well maybe about 130 million, well a little over 120 million, anyway roughly, pretty close to 10x. And the Christian population is about the same, or even a little less. However, in Japan, there are a lot of Christian universities no? This is a Christian university, Sophia is also a Christian university. In other words, Japan has this much Christian propaganda but the numbers don't increase. In Korea, there a a lot of Christians but how come it is not successful in Japan? That's because Japanese people are too serious. They feel that unless it's truly following the European Style Christianity, then it's not Christianity. Everyone is taught and believes that Japanese style Christianity is not real Christianity. And because they are so serious, only the serious one portion of "weird" or in another sense special, particular Christians, number at 430,000 but if Japanese Christianity, one that acknowledged all of the traditional Japanese religions, and practiced Christianity on top of that, for instance in Central/South America and the Philippines, they do not practice 100% "pure" European Christianity. They have aspects of their indigenous, Folk Religion mixed in as well, yes? If Japan recognized this as well, then the number in Japan would instantly rise up to at least 10 million Christians. But the Japanese missionaries, and priests, and Japanese believers themselves say that that type of religion is not Christianity. It has to be 100% pure, definite without any Buddhism, Shinto, or folk religion. In this serious thinking, unless it fits the ideal mold, it is not considered Christianity, which is why the numbers are so small. So if they aimed towards the Japanese religion, then Japan would also have many believers. Endo Shusaku also personally thought about becoming a "European" Christian. He may have even tried, but in the end he was unable to do it. (Naoya: Which was the reason for deep river) Which is why like in Deep River, in the end even while being a Christian, accepting Hinduism as well as other religions and peacefully coexisting, Endo thought he could take in this type of religion. Endo's final arrival point also reflects this, where instead of these exclusive monotheistic religions, unlike the European style Christianity, he decides on a Japanese style way of thinking where all gods and religions can peacefully coexist. I am also this way. Endo's way of thinking and mine are the same.

宮崎先生：私が、こう言うキリシタンの勉強をしようと思う様になったのも遠藤周作の沈黙を読んでからなんですね。　ですから私にとって、遠藤の文学は、私の研究のはじめに（直矢、Prof Entenmann：実は僕も）なるので、私にとっては非常にグレート、大きな存在ですけど、遠藤周作自身もやっぱりその、純粋な、ヨーロッパのキリスト教、ヨーロピアンスタイル（チェリティー）、というのは、これは、彼自身なじめなかった。　やはりジャパニーズクリスチアニティーでないとだめね、所が日本ではキリスト教の数は少ない。　その江戸時代ね、江戸時代のその当時の日本の人口は千二百万人、そのなかで、まあ、４５万人、数だけで言えば、４５万人のキリシタンね。　そして今二千年に、日本は一億二千万以上、十倍ね、そしてこれが４３万人。　ちょうどこうなんですよ。　江戸時代のはじめ、日本の人口は千二百万、そしてその中で４５万人のキリシタンがいた。　今、日本の人口はちょうど十倍、まあ、千三百万人くらいいるけどね、千二百何十いくらかね、まあ、役ほとんど、ちょうど、十倍。で人口は、ほとんど同じかちょっと少ないくらい。　日本では、本当に今キリスト教の大学いっぱいあるでしょ？　ここもキリスト教の大学上智大学もキリスト教の大学ね、と言う事は日本でこれだけ、キリスト教のプロポガンダやってて、何故増えない、キリスト教、例えば韓国、今沢山ね、キリスト教ね、何故日本はだめなのか。　それはやっぱりね、日本で日本人は非常にこれまじめね、Too Serious. 本当にヨーロッパスタイルキリスト教でないと、キリスト教ではない。　ジャパニーズスタイルのキリスト教、これはキリスト教じゃないんだと、みんな思い込んでる、教えられている。　それ真面目だから、本当に真面目な、一部の変な、ある意味でスペシャルな、particularな、Christianが、日本には４３万人いるけど、もし Japanese Christianity, 日本の Traditional な色んな宗教も認めて、その上でキリスト教もと言う、例えば中南米だって、フィリピンだって、１００パーセント、ピュアなヨーロピアンスタイルの Christianity じゃない。　これは土着の、民族宗教ど Folk Religion ともう一緒になってるでしょ？　それを日本人が認めれば、日本はすぐにね、一千万人くらい、キリスト教は私は増えると思う。　だけども、日本の宣教師、神父さんも、Father も、から日本人の信者自身も、そのような物はキリスト教ではない。　本当に１００パーセント純粋な、仏教どんでもない、神道とんでもない、folk religion とんでもない。　こう言う本当にもうイデアルな、スタイルでないと、キリスト教ではないんだと真面目に考えてる、だから少ない。　だからジャパニーズレリジオンの方向を目指してやれば、日本も沢山信者が出る。　で遠藤周作もね、個人的には、そのヨーロッパのキリシタンになる事を少しは考えた、Try したかもしれないけど、結局はできなかった。　（直矢：だから deep river) 　だから deep river あるように、最後はキリシタンであってもヒンズー教と一つになる様な、ほかの宗教ほかの神様とも仲良く、やっていくような、そういう宗教、そういう考え方だったら受け入れる。　遠藤周作も最後に辿り着いたのはそういうね、もう本当にこう排他的な一神教じゃなくて、ほかの神様ともやっぱり仲良くやっていくようなそういう日本的な、というかヨーロッパスタイルでないキリスト教、という形には最終的には辿り着いた。　私自身もそうなんです。　全く遠藤の考え方と私の考え方今は同じ。　

Brendan: Shall we take a photo?

Brendan: 写真を取りましょうか？

Top

 

Goto Islands: First Site
33:12

泉さん：これが牢屋のあと。　だから二間ですから。。。これと三間。

Mr. Izumi: This is the remains of the jail. So 2 ken (1 ken = 1.82 m) and 3 ken.

直矢：それで二百人ですか？

Naoya: And there were 200 people in that space?

泉さん：この中に二百名押し込んだ。　そうすると、子供達は人と人の間に挟まって、足が地に着かなかった。　これ後でずっとご覧になるとお年書いてますからね、八ヶ月間食べ物が一日のみ、芋ふたきりですよ、水をあたえなかったと言ってますが、まあ、役人もね、鬼ばかりではいけませんから、もう晩なんかにこっそり、与えるとか、そういう事もしてるだろうと思います。　まあ実にその厳しい迫害ですもんね。　で最初になくなったのがちょっと行ってみましょうか？　

Mr. Izumi: There were 200 people crammed in here. Because of this, the children were sandwiched between the adults and their feet did not even touch the ground. We will see their ages written later, but for 8 months they only had one meal a day which was two slices of a potato. It's said that they were not given any water but the jail keepers were not all demons, so I think that during the middle of the night, they would secretly provide them with water. In any case it was a very harsh persecution. So the first person that passed away was... shall we take a look?

In front of the gravestones:
34:46

泉さん：七歳でしょ？　五歳でしょ？　五歳でしょ？　あ、まさじろう、じゃなくて、つねいちさん、すぐ忘れるな。　あ、つけいち。　この方が、最初になくなった方。　体が小さかった為に、押し込まれて、窒息した。　息が詰まって。　はい、そしてその死んだ死体は、押しつぶされて、踏みつぶされて、平らになったと書かれてますな。　それからですね、ええと、十歳の子供が「これから、パライソに行くから、お父さんもお母さんもさよなら」。　天国に行くと言う事ね、と言っております。　それからここに、はいはい、１２歳に少女です。　　この方は結局、牢の中は、お便所も何も全く使わせられておりませんのでね、糞便垂れ流しでしょ、当然に、ウジ虫がわく、それが下腹を食い破って、なくなったと言われてます。　これは書いてあります、これは「蝮に」と書いてあります「蝮に下腹を噛まれて、死亡」とある。　蝮じゃなくて、ウジ虫です、書かれてんのはね。　
こういう、しさいのあれがござえますが、ずっとご覧になってくださいませ。　はい、どうぞ。　これ、日本語読めますか？

Mr. Izumi: 7 years old. 5 years old. 5 years old. This is Masajiro, I mean Tsuneichi-san, I keep forgetting. Here is Tsukeichi. These are the ones that first passed away. Since their bodies were small, they were squeezed and suffocated from not being able to breath. Then after they died, it is said that their bodies were crushed and trampled, and became flat. It is written there was also a 10 year old child who said "I am now going to Paraiso (Paradise) so goodbye mother and father," meaning he was going to heaven. Here there is a 12 year old girl. In the jail cell, there were no toilets and they were not allowed out to use any, feces was just scattered everywhere. Obviously, this would lead to bugs breeding. This girl died by having her stomach eaten out by these bugs. It is written here. Although it says "Viper", written here, "Cause of death, bitten in the stomach by a viper." It was not a viper but a bug. So these kinds of circumstances are all written out, please take a look. Can you read this Japanese?

(Camera directed towards stone sign)

Prof. Entenmann: あの、少し。

Prof. Entenmann: Somewhat.

(Camera shifts away from sign to large cross)

(Camera returns to stone sign)

 

Mr. Izumi: Hmm, Maria, Maria Taki, this person is one of the people here. Maria Taki, here it is.

泉さん：ええと、マリア、マリアたき、この方が、ここにある方ですね。　マリアたき、ここにありますよ。

Brendan: So many Marias.

Kirk: Hmm.

38:09 (Towards gravestones again)

泉さん：ひどいのは、なんと、お母さんの胸に抱かれておった、ほい、ようじが（？）っていうの、一歳、一歳、でしょ？　なら実際子供が１２−３名おりますね。　ずっと、４歳、４歳、９歳、という。　

Mr. Izumi: The worst cases are those that were held in their mother's arms. Here it says there were babies, 1 year old, and 1 year old. So in total, there were 12-13 children. All the way down here, 4, 4, and 9 years old.

39:08 (Entering Church)

泉さん：さどうぞ。　

Mr. Izumi: Please enter.

Kirk: はい。

Kirk: Thank you.

泉さん：これは昭和５９年にたてられてますので、それまでは小さな祠（ほこら）みたいなものがあったんです。　でこの島に教会が、１、２。。。この島に五つありましたよ。　で今、それでも、三つありますね。　のり教会がしんきゅうありますから、でこれと。。。あっ、かって六つあったのは今四つ。　だからもう　千八百いたのにね、今ええと、六百ですか。　という事は、１／３に減ってるわけ。　だからもう維持ができなくなりましてね、どんどん教会が倒れていってます。　ええ、　ザザレというこの湾の向こう側、それからこの道を行きますエイと言う所、それから向こう、この先ですね、向こう側にある、三つ消えてます。　

Mr. Izumi: This building was errected in Showa 59. Until then, there was something resembling a tiny shrine. On this Island there used to be 1,2.... 5 churches and now there are still 3 remaining. One of the remaining churches has a new and old church, so that means there used to be 6 and now there are 4. So there used to be 1800 followers but now there are 600, which means it's decreased to 1/3 of the original number. Because of this, they aren't able to support the churches and more and more of them are being closed. Beyond the gulf, there is a place called Sazare and if u follow this road, there is a place called Ei, and one more in that direction, are the 3 churches that have disappeared.

41:53 (Opens a side door)

泉さん：眺めてください

Mr. Izumi: Please take a look.

42:03 Second Site (Lens cap comes off)

泉さん：そしてあの、教会の本当のようしきでありますね。　みを八つに割ってますでしょ？　はちぐわり（？）と普通言いますね。　本当は向こうの山の割り方ですけど、ここは平ぺったく割ってます。　これが五島に三カ所残っているんですよ。　ごりんの教会、ふさかないうら天ね。　それから、えぶくろと言う、これは明治１５年にできました。　（まりも）の三番目となっています。　その教会だけです。　でこの柱の丸柱も珍しいですね。　ほとんどの五島の教会は四角でしょ？　そしてあのお寺の丸い（かんかくのあったさいこうしゅうねんはね？）ほとんど四角ですよ。　
でこれを、ええと何年ですかね、ちょっと記憶ごさいません、建て替えようとして、前あった教会をごりんに持って行った。　これが国の重要文化。　ごりんと言う、もう数個しかない、小さな部落ですんでね、で前の教会を持って行ったと言う。　でそれが今の国の宝となったいる訳です。　

Mr. Izumi: So this is the part that is actually used in the church. It is split into 8 parts, and usually called "Hatchiguwari". It's really supposed to be split in the same manner as the mountain over there, but here it is split very flat. This type can only be found in 3 locations in Goto. The Church at Golin, Fusakanauchi Uraten, and Ebukuro, which was built in Meiji year 15. Those 3 churches. These pillars are also rare. Most of the churches in Goto have square pillars.
And this, I don't quite remember what year, but they tried to rebuild the church and moved the old church to Golin, which is now a national treasure. Golin is a small place with a small place with a low population so they had use for the old smaller church, and it then became a national treasure.

44:02

泉さん：五島の教会の特色の一つにこのとうちゅうと言います。　塔の、その柱の頭、植物を扱ってるのが多いですね。　それからステンドグラス見てください。　あの十字をかたどったますが、あれは何ですか？　花の模様、花の模様。　何の花ですか？　

Mr. Izumi: I will tell you one of the unique features of the Goto Churches. One top of many of the pillars, there is a type of plant. Also take a look at the stained glass. It has the shape of a cross, but what exactly is it? A pattern of a flower. but what flower?

Erin：椿じゃないんですか？

Erin: Isn't it a Camellia (tsubaki)?

泉さん：椿。　椿は五弁だけど、あれはアブストラクト書きに教会の十字に合わした形なんですね。　

Mr. Izumi: The camellia has five petals but that it is portrayed in an abstract style to match the shape of a cross.

45:06
泉さん：あの額縁をなんて言うか知ってますか？　額縁ずっとありますでしょ？　とちも七枚ずつありますね。　十字架の、道行き。　レリーフで、ずーと、十字架を担いで歩いた道程を書いてる所があるから、そこへ案内します。　五島だはただ一カ所だけ。　セッコのレリーフでね、キリストの言葉をこう入れて、作ったのがあります。　

この柱もね、

Mr. Izumi: Do you know what those framed pictures are? The ones that are lined up against the wall. Can you see there are seven on each side? The stations of the cross. There is a place that has a relief sculpture of the whole journey of the carrying of the cross which I will show you later. It is the only place in the Goto Islands. A plaster relief sculpture, which the words of Christ.

Brendan: Looks like everyone has their own personal pew. Yeah, like there's a hat over there.

Kirk: Purses

46:41

泉さん：。。。信者の数が５、６０もありますから。　たてれば五島の後の重要文化財のかしらかじまの教会。　あれを作ろうと思ったけど、しすうがない、金がない、じゃどうするか、幸いに、石がある、砂に囲んでできた石が、普通はあの墓石の土台に使うんですよ。　そして、近くにその、墓を、墓石を作る工場があった、近くにね。　その技術を持っていたから山から石を切って来て、お金の代わりに。　だから十一かかってつみあげたんです。　これがかせらじまの教会。　今国の重要文化財ですね。　だから相当これは苦労してるんですよ、建てる為にはね。　進行熱心な方々で、明日のミサのためには、土曜日はお休み。　さあ、今はどうですか、一時そういう時代があったんです。　今はもう生活が苦しいだけなんだから。　そんな事まではしないと思いますがね。　

Mr. Izumi: ... the number of believers was 50-60, so if the church was built, it would have been like the Kashirakajima Church which is now an important cultural asset. They wanted to build a church like that but they didn't have the money, so what did they do? Luckily there was plenty of stone, so stone which was formed from sand that was surrounded which is usually made to use the gravestones. So this gravestone factory was nearby. They used this technology to cut the rocks and bring them down the mountain and exchange it for money. So they made 11 of these and this is the Kaserajima Church. Now deemed an important cultural asset by the country. So they went through extraordinary pains to build this church. Being very devout, in order for tomorrow's Mass, Saturdays are rest days. What about now? There once was a time period like that, but now since life is so tough, they won't go as far as to not do any work on Saturday.

48:19

泉さん：キリストが十字架に釘で打ち付けられてますよ。　

Mr. Izumi: Christ has been nailed to the cross.

48:55 Large Gravestone Site

泉さん：ここからずっとこう見て行きますね。　これからずっと一列、二列、三列、四列、五列。　こう並んでますが、まあこっちから見てみましょうか？　

Mr. Izumi: If you look from here. From here all the way, there is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 rows. They are all lined up in this way. Well lets take a look from here.

向こうまで見てみましょうね。　

Lets look from over there.

(Camera is too far away from speaker so words are unclear)

50:07

泉さん：さ、この辺でお分かりではありませんか？　

Mr. Izumi: Ok, so you probably can tell from here can't you?

50:23

泉さん：持って帰って宮崎先生に報告しなければならんですが、レーポート。　どうしましょう？　何か御気づきになりませんか？　

Mr. Izumi: You need to go back and give a report to Prof. Miyazaki. What will you do? Do you notice anything?

Brendan: I noticed that on some of the bricks, some of them have things that kind of look like crosses. I mean obviously that one over there had crosses on them.

泉さん：ここは元々先ほど言った、ひらぞう、と、くろぞう、です。　くすはら、一番最初に、長崎の郊外の外海（Sotome) ね, 外海半島から、キリシタンが入った所ですよ。　ここね。　ところが、明治の始めに調べてみたら、一人もでないんです。　だから明治政治が全部調べてるんですよ。　で五島全体、２３００何名って言ってますがね、入ってないんです。　と言う事は、調べた時にすでにすでに、地下に潜っとった。　である隠れキリシタン。　ね、隠れキリシタン。　でその里が、何でこう言う墓のかまえをしたか。　さ、どうぞ。

Mr. Izumi: This was originally land of the Hirazo and Kurozo. Kusuhara, this is the first place where Christianity came in from Sotome, the outskirts of Nagasaki. However according to an inquiry from the beginning of the Meiji period, there was not even a single Christian. The Meiji government examined everywhere and among the 2300 Christians in Goto at the time, the people here were not listed. Which means that during the survey, they were already underground. Kakure Kirishitan. So why are the graves like this, in their ancestral home?

52:06

 

泉さん：今夜の夕御飯だめ。

Mr. Izumi: No dinner for all of you.

(Laughter)
泉さん：何でしょう。　帰って、宮崎先生に聞きますか？　

Mr. Izumi: So what is it? Will you go back and ask Prof. Miyazaki?

(More nervous laughter)

泉さん：九州大学の民族学科関係の先生が来られてね、そして、ご案内して、どう思われますか？　半時間ばかり考えて、答えない。　(Laughter) ついに答えが出ませんでしたが皆さんいかがでしょうか。　

Mr. Izumi: There was a ethnology professor from Kyushu University that came here and I showed this place and what he thought. He thought for half an hour but had no answer. (Laughter) He ultimately could not come up with an answer but what do you think?

52:52 Cut, same location.

泉さん：（この）向きは何処ですか？　ああ、はい。　この二番目見てみますね。　どれも違ったのありませんね。　全部一緒でしょ？　どれ見ても一緒ですが、どうなんでしょう？　こう言う事は別に書かれた物はないようですが、よく見られてないと思うんですが、皆さん行って報告をしてほしいんです、ここを見たって事をね。　何を報告するのか？　普通ものを並べる時には、例えば家並みもそうですね、家並みでもこう中央の道路があると、向け合うんでしょ？　（直矢：はい）ね？　例えばこう言う道路がありますと、こっちがこう向くと、こっちは何で向こうばかり向いているんかってこと。　じゃそろそろヒントを与えましょうね。　向こうは東です。　（Erin: あああ。）　（直矢：東は長崎）　東は長崎ですか？　長崎を向いてるの？　じゃあ西は？　（Erin: 西は、長崎）　西は長崎じゃない。　西はこっち。　（Kirk: んんん）　何故西？　（Brendan: 中国、韓国と中国。）　韓国と中国を向く必要ないですか？　向こうけんかするから。　(Erin: It's facing east.) (直矢：じゃ、インドとか？）　インド？　インド？　（直矢：イスラエルとか。）　インドはちょっと関係がありますね。　元々、仏教は西を向くんです。　西方浄土。　（Kirk:　うんん）　西の方に浄土がある。　（Erin: Ahhh)　極楽がある？　（直矢：あ、はい）　それから、あのカトリック関係の方々は、上層の国は東ですよ。　上層のくには。　だからこの人達は自分達は隠れキリシタンと、落し見られておるけどもね、人からそういう目で見られておるけれども、「私たちは神の国をむいてるのだ。」　そういう意気を示した物だと我は見てるんです。　はい、宮崎先生に聞いてみてください。　（Kirk: はい、はい）　こういう説明をするのがおったが、本当がどうか。　（Kirk: あっはっはっは）　我はそう思ってます。　

Mr. Izumi: Which way is it facing? Yes, look at the second one as well. They are all facing in the same direction yes? So what does this mean? There is nothing written regarding this but look closely and think hard, I'd like you to report on what you've seen here. Report what? Normally when you line things up, for instance homes, you would have a main road and they would all face this main road, yes? (Naoya: Yes.) Yes? For instance if you had a road here, if this one faced this way, why would that one face away that way? I will give you a hint, the direction is east. (Erin: Ah.) (Naoya: East is Nagasaki.) East is Nagasaki? They are facing Nagasaki? What about west? (Erin: Nagasaki is west.) Nagasaki is not in the west. West is this way. (Kirk: Hmm) So why west? (Brendan: China, Korea and China.) Is it necessary to face Korea and China? To start a war? (Erin: It's facing east.) (Naoya: Maybe India?) India? India? (Naoya: Or Isreal.) India is somewhat related. By nature, Buddhist graves face West. Western Pureland. (Kirk: Hmm.) Paradise is West. (Erin: Ah.) The Buddhist paradise is there? (Naoya: Yes.) And from the Catholic perspective, Heaven is in the East. So while these people might have been overlooked as Kakure Kirishitans, even though they were seen this way by other people they wanted to show that "We are facing towards the country of God." Please ask Prof. Miyazaki what he things. (KIrk: Ok.) "There was someone who said this, but is this true?" (Kirk: Haha) This is what I think.

55:52

 

泉さん：これ隠れキリシタンと言うのはね、二重の苦しみがあったんですよ。 自分はキリストに　。　例えば、日本の有名な誰ですか、あの瀬居半島（せいはんとう）に文化館があります、遠藤周作。　（Kirk: はあ、はあ）　あの人は「転び」とか「離れ」とかって言葉を使ってますね。　「転び」って言うのは、キリスト教から転んだってことでしょ？　　背教した、捨てたって事でしょ。　彼らは捨てちゃいないんですよ、隠れキリシタンの人は。　で、宮崎先生はそうおっしゃってる。　なぜ、教会に入らなかったの。　それは、父祖がね、二百数十年わたって、耐えて来て、信仰して来たものを続けて行こうと言う、これがまず第一あるんですね。　もちろんその教会に入れば、うるさいとか、金がいるとか、こう言う事もありますけど、根本にはやっぱり父祖のある苦しんだ道を自分達もつぎたいと言う思いがあったんです。　だから、私たちは、隠れキリシタンのくらしをずっと見てますから非常に謙虚ですよ、生活態度がね、人からそう見られておるから。　やっぱり自分も鬱染む（うつしむ）と言う気持ちが強いんです。

Mr. Miyazki: The Kakure Kirishitan's had a twofold suffering. That they've been thro. For instance, the famous writer who is featured in the Seihanto Cultural Center, Endo Shusaku. (Kirk: Yea) He uses the words "Stumble" or "Detached" doesn't he? To "Stumble" is to mean that they stumbled from Christianity. That they abandoned or threw away their religion. But the Kakure Kirishitan never threw away their religion. Prof. Miyazaki also says this. So then, why did they not enter a church? This is because they would like to continue what their ancestors had believed in and endured for 200 some years. This is the first and foremost reason. Of course there are other reasons such as if they entered a church, it could be bothersome, and they would be asked to give money, but the main reason is probably because they wanted to continue the road which their ancestors suffered through. I've watched the living style of the Kakure Kirishitan, and they are extremely humble in their attitude towards life, because other people see them as those that have suffered and are still suffering in some ways. They probably have a very strong lingering feeling of gloominess themselves as well.

57:23
泉さん：まあ、わざわざ来て見るようなもんじゃありませんけれども、そうしとからおとし、何と言いますか？　蔑（さげす）まれながらも、やっぱり神の国を向いたと言う。　そういう気を解って欲しいんです。　ね、いかがでしょ？　

Mr. Izumi: Well, this may not have been something worth coming all the way here to see but, i felt it was important because, how should I put it? Even while they were scorned, they still faced their graves towards the land of God. I wanted you understand their feelings and intentions. So, what do you think?

直矢：この墓とかは、なんかわりと新しく見えるんですが。

Naoya: These graves all look fairly new to me.

泉さん：新しい。　だから、皆さんで話し合ってね、こう向きをしようとしたんじゃないですか？　聞いておりませんけど、この作りから見てね。　やっぱり、ぴちっと集めて、きちっと向くのは。　どうですか？　まあ、特に見る必要はなかったでしょうか？　

Mr. Izumi: They are new. So what probably happened was that everyone discussed and decided to have them face this way. I haven't from anyone regarding this but just by looking at how it's set, how they are all gathered together tightly and neatly facing East, I think it speaks for itself. How is it? Was it worth coming here?

直矢：来てよかったです。

Naoya: Yes, thanks for bringing us here.

泉さん：いや、こんなの何処にもないんですから。　カトリックの墓だって土地の状況によって、こっち向いたり、こっち向いたりしてるでしょ？　

Mr. Izumi: There is no where else like this. Even Catholic graves, depending on the condition of the land, faces this way or that way, doesn't it?

直矢、Erin: そうですね。

Naoya, Erin: Yes.

泉さん：だがらここは土地にめぐまれたといいながらでも、一方向いてる。　まあそう言う、かたくなさがね、私はまあ、気に入ってる。　そう言う、何というかな、気持ちをちゃんと表してるなと思ってる訳です。　ま、墓はみんな十字もなければ、キリストの関係まったくないですよ。　そうしながらも、そう言う思いがあるわけね。　はい、と言う事で。　いかがでしょ？　皆さんは初めてあんないした。

Mr. Izumi: So while this place is blessed by the land, they are all facing one direction. This type of stubbornness is something that I find appealing. How should I say, I feel that they are properly expressing their feelings. Even though not all of the graves have Crosses, from and look as if there is no connection with Christianity, it is still possible to tell they have a certain feeling. So, did you enjoy this? You are the first group I have guided to this place.

Kirk: ふんん

Kirk: Wow.

泉さん：他の人見たって解らないから。

Mr. Izumi: Other people would not understand even if they saw.

Kirk: はああああ。

Kirk: I see.

泉さん：。。。これはキリスト教の信仰を解れた方でなければ。　前には十字架が昔あったんですよ、先祖の墓そのまま。　山の中のこうあったんだね。　それ全部ここに移して来た時に、こういうけんしきに変わっておりました。

Mr. Izumi: ... this is only something that a person who understands Christianity can comprehend. Before they had a cross, at their ancestor's grave in the mountains. When they brought all of those graves over here, they changed it into this way.

直矢：これは古い墓を移動した感じなやつなんですけど。　

Naoya: This looks like they brought the old grave over here.

泉さん：でこれ今は集合墓と申しまして、昔は一人、一人、こうまつったんでけれど、今はこうしてね、お骨をいれるようになってる。　まあ、家族が全部入るようになってる。　

Mr. Izumi: This is called the assembled grave, in the past they had a grave for each person, and they worshipped them one by one, but now they put the bones in there. Basically so the whole family can fit in.

Top

Goto Islands Continued

Reading Sign:

ふりつけどうろようちとして、ひらやませいまつ、よりとちのそうをいただく、など、かんけいかくいの、だだいなごきょうりょくにより、しゅうえんをみたりました。　このごえんは、ちょうないじゅうおゆびとうちょうかんけいしゃのえいえんのれいち。

泉さん：。。。だから皆さんがみんな話し合って、この霊園とま配置を決めてるようですね。　（reading: どっからも、べんりなちゅうしんとうごうし）各地にあったのを、みんあ集めて来て、(reading: よりきんだいてきな墓地を建設したとねがわちょうない住民のつよういようごうにより、建設が計画された。建設にさいして墓地をそして、平山、中、た、どの、および、）これ誰かが都合の悪い人がおったんでしょう。　

(Reading sign)

Mr. Izumi: ... So this sign says that the cemetery and it's location was decided through many discussions among each other. (reading more) they took their graves which were located in different places and gathered them together, (reading again) they must have erased someone's named who was under some bad circumstances.

00:53:

泉さん：しかしこの構成、いわゆる並び方については全然ふれてません。　そう言われるんです、私たちはね、こう隠れキリシタンだから東を向いたんだと言えないんだ。　そう思うんです。　はい、じゃまいりましょう。　

Mr. Izumi: However, there is nothing written regarding the structure and arrangement of the graves. That is what we're told, that they must be facing East because they are Kakure Kirishitan's. That's what I think. Ok then, let's move on.

01:11 Cut to Field

01:24 Cut to Church

01:58 Outside of Church

泉さん：じゃいいですか？　こっからいきましょう。　明治６年に、の二月ですね、キリスト教が回帰になる、禁止のこうさつがなくなるわけね、で九月にはここにふでの（？）神父がやってまりますね、最初。　そして、司祭館ですから、教会じゃなくて、神父さんのお住まいができます。　でその時の十二月には、あれを、クリスマスやってると言ってますからね、電灯、だから何処にもそういうしせつがないわけですから、その、あっちこっちから全部集まってるわけですよね。　で、この方が、初代のここの神父として来られるんのは、マルマン神父、フランスの方。　でこの方がこういう子供達を集めた孤児院を作ったんですね。　でそれはここにありました、教会の裏に。　でこれは３７年にこれを改築してね、この教会にする為に、その孤児院は向こうに移って、さっきの白いとこ。　その仕事をされたのが、このヘルシム。　この方もフランスの方。　でこの方の近くにルルドがあったわけですよ、あのピレネー山脈のふもとにね。　だから、この人の時に、ちょうど、にもちがわら（？）天主堂、向こうに、浜の裏ね、これを作った訳。　明治２８年ですから、これよりも、１３年早くね。　これが、今残っておれば、五島最古のれんが造りになるのです。　でこれが62年の台風九号と思ってますが、すごい台風があったんですよ。　で倒壊したんです、れんが造りが。　で今作り替えて、これは昭和６３年、　だから今から１８年前に作り替えてますね。　だから今五島で一番新しい教会がその教会。　ただここにルルドがあるんですよ。　日本で一番ふるい。　それはこの方がフランスのね、そういう関係で、そしてこの方建築学者でもありましたから。　設計されてるんです、向こう。　その時に、ルルドを作ってると。　まそう言う関係で。　はい、じゃまいりましょう。　面白いものがあります。　

Mr. Izumi: Are we ready? Let's start from here. In February of Meiji 6, Christianity officially returned to Japan through the lift of the ban, and in September, Father Fudeno arrived here. At first there was just a parsonage for the Father and not a Church. That December, for Christmas there were lights, and since at that time there was nothing else like that anywhere else, people from all over the places gathered here. And the person who comes to become the first priest for all these people is Father Malman, from France. This same person also started the orphanage nearby which used to be here, behind the church. In Meiji 37, in order to rebuild the church, to the current form, they moved the orphanage over there, the white building we just saw. The priest who conducted this was Helshim, who was also from France. His hometown was at the base of the Pyrenees near Lourdes. During his time, the Nimochigawara Church, the one on the other side of the shore was built in Meiji 28, 13 years before this one. If that church still existed, it would be the oldest brick building on the Goto Islands. However in Showa 62, there was a huge Typhoon, it's thought to have been the ninth Typhoon of that year which destroyed it. In Showa 63, it was rebuilt so 18 years ago. So the newest church in Goto is now that one. So this church in front of you is now the oldest Lourdes style church in Japan. This is because the priest was from France and he was also an architect so he designed the Churches. So that is the relation. Let's continue on. I have something interesting to show you.

5:03 In front of a stone sign

泉さん：ここに五島のキリシタンが入って来た由来をずうと書いてありますね。　（reading: １８代ふくすみさだのまねきにより）とかありますよ。　（reading: アルメイダと日本人の修道士のロレンソが来島して、キリストの教えを広めた) と書いてあります。　(reading: そのこの１９代のはんしとなったすみたかが、ふきょうにつとめて、さいせいきをむかえた。) と、(reading: ひでよしにはじまる禁教令による、弾圧が始まる、１５９７年、長崎で２６人のキリシタンが、殉教した。)　これが、その一人がヨハネ五島。　ヨハン五島とも言いますね。　

Mr. Izumi: Here the history and origin of the Goto Island Christians is written. It's written here: "Due to the 18 generation Fukusumi Misatada, the missionary to Japan and Almeida, Lorenzo arrived on the Island." and "Because of the ban by Hideyoshi, the crackdown starts, and in 1597, 26 Christians are martyred in Nagasaki." Among which one was Johannes Goto. He is also called "Yohan" Goto as well.

05:57 Johannes Goto on a Cross　

泉さん：で昨日帰りに大浜のやぶればとの話をしました。　そこのしろがあって、たてこもって、敵対したけれども破れて、あれから長崎に流れた。　これが今の五島町。　その中にヨハネ五島が生まれた。　という事をずっと書かれてあります。　

Mr. Izumi: Yesterday I told you about the location of the Ohama defeat. There was a castle there and they barricaded themselves there and fought back but lost so they drifted off to Nagasaki. The place where they settled in Nagasaki is now called Goto-machi (Goto Town). It was there that Johannes Goto was born. This is all written here.

6:24

泉さん：そしてね、面白いものをご覧になってください。　昨日通りました大浜から出た物ですよ。　貴方解るでしょう？　

Mr. Izumi: Now then, please take a look at something very interesting. It came from Ohama, the place we passed by yesterday. You can tell what it is right?

6:41

 

泉さん：わかる？

Mr. Izumi: Can you tell?

Brendan: あの、火山の、Isn't that from volcanic rock?

直矢：火山の石？

Naoya: A rock from a volcano? (Volcanic rock?)

泉さん：いや、これ火山ですね。　（Kirk: はい）　火山の石ですが、なんか象ってませんか？

Mr. Izumi: Yes, this is volcanic rock, but doesn't it have the image of something else as well?

AFJapan: マリア？

泉さん：キリストです。(Points to front side)

Mr. Izumi: This is Christ.

Kirk: Ah

泉さん：マリアです。（Points to back side)

Mr. Izumi: This is Maria.

AFJapan: Ah

Kirk: はい！わかります！

Kirk: Yes! I understand!

泉さん：だから当時の、キリストの信仰者がこの石をキリストとマリアと見立てて、信仰をした訳ですよ。　だから、それが、あの大浜にのこっとった、地蔵堂の中に。　ね？　で、いまひとつがこれです。　

Mr. Izumi: So the Christian believers at the time saw this rock as Christ and Maria and practiced their faith. This was located in the Jizodou (Guardian diety shrine) in Ohama, and this is one of them.

7:45 Pulls Rock Number 2 Out

泉さん：これ。　これはちょっとキリストが見えませんが。　この姿はマリアの姿ですね。　三つ残ってたんですよ、これが。　一つはちょっと、ありません。　でこれをここでまつってるんです。　

Mr. Izumi: This one, doesn't quite look like Christ, but it does have Maria's form. There were three left of this kind. One is not here but they enshrined all of them here.

8:01 Pulls Rock Number 3 Out

泉さん：これは違います。　だだの石。　と、人がいなくなるとこれを裏返すと。

Mr. Izumi: This is different. Just a normal rock... but when people are gone and it's turned around...

8:14 Flips Rock Number 3 Over

AFJapan: Ahhh

泉さん：でこの石は何処の石かと言ったら、五島にない石です、これ。　あの、長崎郊外の外海ね、セイヒ半島。　あの、ドロ神父が作られたシツ教会、今の重要文化財。　はい、あそこの浜の石です、これ。　だから、あそこから完成年、今から２００年前に、キリスタンが移ってきましてね、五島のキリシタンを復活させてる。　もう全滅していなくなってるのを、盛り上げてる訳でしょ？　その人々が持って来たと言う訳になる。　本来はこうですよ。　(Flips the stone so Cross is hidden)　人がいなくなったら、こっそり(traces Cross with finger through the air).

Mr. Izumi: However, this type of rock is not found in Goto. It's from the Seihi Peninsula of Sotome, the same area as where the Shitsu Church that Father Doro built is located, which is also now a important cultural asset. This rock is from the seaside over there. So about 200 years ago Christians came from there to the Goto Islands to revive Christianity on the Goto Islands. The brought back Christianity after it had almost been completely wiped out. It's usual position is like this, (Flips the stone so Cross is hidden) and when people are gone they secretly (traces Cross with finger through the air).

9:15 Camera pans back to Johannes Goto

泉さん：これがヨハネ五島、別名ジュワン五島とも言いますがね。　五島の人で九州で唯一の人です、だたひとり。　ええと、いかれましたか？　二十六聖人の、行きましたね？　中で見ましょう。　

Mr. Izumi: This is Johannes Goto, some also call him Jowan Goto. He is the most, or possibly the only famous person in Kyushi from the Goto Islands. Have you been to the Memorial for the 26 Martyrs? Let's look inside.

9:34 Camera Pans to Copper Plate

泉さん：あの銅板が真ん中が十八代のスミサダコウ。　その人がよんだんです。　お話されてるのが、アルメイダ、宣教師ね。　で手前にビアオモって言う人おりました、座ってね。　あれがロレンソ。　めくらの（couldn't catch rest of sentence, speaker too far from camera). 。。。あの人らはまあ、通訳の人ですね。。。そして、後ろの方達が。。。２５名洗礼まず洗礼を受けた。　その事を聞いたのが。。。　洗礼を受けて。。。　

Mr. Izumi: The person in the center of that bronze cast is the 18 generation of Sumisadako. He is the person that called them over (the missionaries). The person speaking is Almeida the missionary. To the front there is a man sitting named Biamo. That is Lorenzo. The blind... That person is the translator... And the people in the back are... at first 25 people received baptism. The person who heard about this was... They then received baptism...

10:30

泉さん：あれマリアさんがあれは。　ルルドですよ。　五島各地はあの、ルルドの形でね。。。　のちに行きますが違ったのがあるんです、よく見といてください、あれがないのがありますから。　この椿の木。。。　将来は向こうの島、２６聖人の記念心像となるから。　有名な椿を２６種類あっちに植えようと。。。　上を全部整理して。　植えると２６聖人の花がさくと。　はっは。　はい、どうぞ

Mr. Izumi: That is Maria. It is in the Lourdes style. That style is all over Goto. Eventually we will go to a place which is a little different so place take a close look now. This Tsubaki tree... in the future will be on the island over there, as a memorial for the 26 Martyrs. They will take 26 different famous types of Tsubaki and plant them over there... after they clean everything above. After they plant it, there will be the flowers for the 26 Martyrs. Ok, please enter.

11:55 Cut to Maria statue

泉さん：羊飼いね。後はみんな (some kind of windmill noise cut rest of sound out) じゃ、行きましょ。

Mr. Izumi: The shepherd. The rest is all (windmill noise) Ok, let's go.

12:33 Shot of Front of Church

13:33 Inside Church

泉さん：何か気付かれましたか？　先に見てください。　ここで何か気付かれた事は？　向こうの？　祭壇部とこの礼拝のね、これが違うでしょ？　ここ、リヴ・ヴォルト、コウモリ天井、リヴ・ヴォルト。　向こうは？　日本式で折り上げと言う。　こういって丸く折りあげてる。　あの折り上げの仕方も色々ありますよ。　こう折り上げ回るし、ななめもあるしね。　とにかく、こう垂直な物を天井とある形でつなぐ。　あれは曲線でつないでる。　折り上げ天井。　これが実はてつがわようすけのとくいなのです。　だからこれ非常に難しい仕組みですからね、小さい教会なんかは、ああいう形で折り上げて、天井の形をこう美しくしてる訳ですよ。　あそこはやっぱり一番大きな違いですよね、他の教会と。　ところが、大好きな椿が見つからんのですよ。　あの辺にちょっと形が残ってるだけでしてね、ほとんどのは直線的なこういう物。　ここはお写真結構ですよ。　どうぞ、お座りになって眺めてください。　

Mr. Izumi: Have you noticed something? Please look towards the front. The thing to notice here compared to the other Church? The place of worship the altar, is different here isn't it? Over here is is Rivo Vaulte, the bat ceiling, Rivo Vaulte. But over there, (the alter section) utilizes the Japanese "fold up" style. The wall is folded up roundly into the ceiling. There are many different types of "fold up" ceilings. There is the round style and also the diagonal style. In any case, the purpose is to connect the wall with the ceiling in a certain shape or form. This place is connected with a curve. The "fold up" ceiling was actually a strong point of Yosuke Testugawa's. Because the Rivo Vaulte was an extremely hard mechanism to construct, small Churches would have their ceilings "folded up" to make the ceilings look beautiful. This is probably the largest difference between this Church and the other ones. However, the Tsubaki are also hard to find here. There are a few shapes over there, but most are very linear in shapes like this. You can take photos here if you would like. Please, sit down a moment and take a look.

16:23

泉さん：。。。でこれがテツカワさんのね、ちゅうとうの花。。。

Mr Izumi: ... and this is Mr. Testukawa's style of putting a flower on the top of the column...

17:04 Cut, same location

泉さん：ここだけね、これはここが初めて。

Mr. Izumi: Only here, this is the first place.

17:15 Cut to outside of Church

 

泉さん：この部落は、全部神道じゃないんですよ。　一部仏教徒がおる。　この模様よそのなんですね。　よその人達が多分、隠れキリシタンが仏教に入ったんだろうと思うんだね。　やっぱり明治の迫害ひどかったから。　迫害逃れる為にと言う人もおるわけね。　そこはなかなか、探る事ができません。　　(Outdoor noise covers rest of convo)

Mr. Izumi: This area is not all Shinto, there are some Buddhists as well. This pattern is not related to this church. Maybe other Kakure Kirishitan's in this area became Buddhists. Possibly due to the severity of the Meiji persecution. Some say it may have been to escape the persecution. However, I haven't been able to find a definite answer to this. (Outside noise)

18:22 Following Church

Kirk: No I didn't get that.

Naoya: This one was modeled after the Oura Tenshidou in Nagasaki. He's going to show us two distinct differences despite the fact that it's been modeled after the Oura Tenshidou.

18:52 Stairs in front of Church

泉さん：日本人は足が小さいのかな？　ね、ちょっとこれはきついね。　

Mr. Izumi: I wonder if Japanese people have small feet? This is a little hard to climb isn't it?

Kirk: 難しい。

Kirk: It's difficult.

泉さん：もと広げてくれたら。。。　お客様が来てますよ。　

Mr. Izumi: It'd be nice is they made them a little wider... There is a guest inside.

泉さん：まず一つは大浦教会は、やねがもう一つでるんです。　三層。　だから中のしきりが六つになるんですね。　主廊また身廊とも言いますが。　そくろうにわきろうがつく。　だから、一つ、二つ、三つ。　合わして六つになつ。　これが一つ。　じゃまず中に入ってみましょうか？　お客様がおられるようですね。

Mr. izumi: First, at the Oura Church there is another roof, so it is three layered. So there are six partitions in the middle. the main section, (Shuro) and there is also the side section (Sokuro) and the extra section (Wakiro). So, one, two three, and them combined there are six. This is the first difference. Shall we go in? It appears there are others inside as well.

20:51 Inside the Church

Kirk: これが八の。
Kirk: There is eight.
泉さん：ん？
Mr. Izumi: Pardon?
直矢：八つに分かれてますね。
Naoya: It is divided into eight sections.
Kirk: はい
Kirk: Yes.

泉さん：きづかれましたか？　一つは屋根のそうがい。　今一つ。　
Mr. Izumi: Have you taken notice? The first is the way the roof is built. The next?

Brendan: The circles look like yin and yang.

泉さん：ん？　あのかざりですか？
Mr Izumi: Pardon? That decoration?

Kirk: その丸は。　
Kirk: That circle.

泉さん：これ？
Mr. Izumi: This?

Kirk: 違う、あっちの。
Kirk: No, the one over there.

泉さん：んん、確かにありませんね。
Mr. Izumi: No, the difference is not there.

直矢：柱ですか？
Naoya: The columns?

泉さん：これは椿ですね。　確かにありませんね。
Mr. Izumi: Those are Tsubaki. The difference is not there either.

22:24

泉さん：マリア様とキリストの、いちが違うんです。　
Mr. Izumi: The location of the Virgin Mary and Christ are different.

泉さん：大浦天主堂、大浦教会、（直矢：あ、マリアが真ん中。）マリアでしょう。　こっちは天主堂ですね、位置が違いますね。　
Mr Izumi: At the Oura Church, (Naoya: Oh, Maria is in the middle) Maria is there. Over here she is in a different location isnt she?

直矢：これはなんですか？
Naoya: What is this?

泉さん：こんなのは椿のあれをおしもんでしょう？
Mr. Izumi: That is also a pattern of the Tsubaki.

直矢：位置がちがうのはなぜですか？
Naoya: Why are the locations different.

泉さん：なぜでしょう？　　大浦天主堂みえぬしたのかな。。。(Laughter covers part of dialogue) 反対しましょう。　よく解りません。　さっき言ったように大浦天主堂は、こらが身廊、そくろう、で中柱があって。。。
Mr. Izumi: I wonder? Maybe the Oura Church didn't realize this. (Laughter) possible the opposite. I'm not really sure. Like I said before, at the Oura Church, this would be the main section, then the side section, and there would be the middle column.

泉さん：。。。ひとが増えていく、だから屋根をつきだして、作るから。　部屋が六つ式になった。　え、六つじゃない。　五郎ね。　身廊、側廊、あきろう、で五郎。　

Mr. Izumi: ... since the number of people increased, so they extended the roof and the area was divided into 6 sections. Wait, not six. 5. The main section, the side, the extra, and the empty section, altogether 5.

24:25

泉さん：こんどはですね、これが十字架の道行き七枚、十四枚ありますね。　これ実際にレリーフで表してるんですよ。　これはここだけ。　五島の教会ではね。　それを実際に歩いてみましょう。　ま、少し涼んで行きましょう。　テツカワようすけはここを最後に作られて、そしてまあ引退と言うかたちをとったわけですが、浦上と言う天主堂が（昭和）２０年に原爆でやられますね。　そして、２５、６、年後に作り替えて時に、もう子供の時代になってたんですね。　しかし、テツカワようすけの設計には建ってる。　設計はテツカワようすけの設計。　現在の浦上天主堂。　９５、６歳でなくなってますからね。　であの人は、信徒じゃないんですよ。　あの人は仏教徒です。　でもやっぱりあの、ペル神父とかドル神父とかね、こういう方々におつきあいをして、その建築学をまなんだの為にけいとうしたんでしょう。　元々は、仏教徒なんですね。　入信したわけじゃありません。　今あの人が作った教会が五島にですね、ええと、ひやみず、かしらじま、あおさがうら、それから、おおその教会、たいのうら、ええ、１６個あるんですがね、上五島、あっ、えがみの教会、はんどまり、どうざき、くすはら、みずのうら、後六つ、ちょっと探し出せませんね。　五島全体でね、１６個造ってます。　そして全国的に、まあ全国と言っても九州一円だけど。　ここらとか、それから、福岡の今村、天草に三つほどありますね。　これを全部集めると、３７数ありますよ。　どれ一つだって同じじゃない。　先ほどのようにね、あの祭壇部を折り上げにして見たり。　そういう教会の作りを色々と工夫されてますから。　

Mr. Izumi: Next, we'll move onto the 14 stations of the cross (7 on each side). There is a real set of carvings which displays this and the only place among the Goto churches. We will walk through the trail. Let's first cool off before we go. This is the last place that Yosuke Tetsugawa designed. Well actually there is a church which he designed while in "retirement". There was a church called Urakami Church which was destroyed by the atomic bomb. Then 25 or 26 years when it was rebuilt, it had already become his children's generation but they built a new one according to Testukawa's plans. The current Urakami Church's plans were designed by Testukawa. He passed away at 95 or 96 years of age. Also, he was not a Christian, but Buddhist. But because he learned architecture from people such as Father Peru and Doru so he probably admired and respected them. However he was a Buddhist, and was not converted. Presently the number of churches he built in Goto is, let me see, Hiyamizu, Kashirajima, Aosagaura, also, Oso Church, Tainoura, there are 16, Kamigoto, Egami Chruch, Handomari, Dozaki, Kusuhara, Mizunoura, six more, I can't think of them now. In anycase there are 16 total in the Goto Islands. And nationwide, well they are all in Kyushi but... Kokora, and Imamura in Fukuoka, Amakusa, are three outside of goto. In total there are 37. Not one of them is the same. For instance like the Church we were at before where the altar section was "folded-up". Each church had specially contrived devices.

27:59

泉さん：ローマ法王庁の大使がまつられてます。　この石面白いでしょう。　ねえ、むしがついて。　浸食して。　穴ができて。　じゃ、向こう。
Mr. izumi: The ambassador of the Roman Court (Curia Romana) is enshrined here. Can you see how the rock is white here? It's been eroded and there are holes now. Let's go over there now.

28:46

泉さん：これこれから入り参ります。　十字架の道行きをレリーフでずっと表しておりますね。　ここ参道ですよ。　

Mr. Izumi: We're start here. The 14 stations of the cross are all displayed through relief carvings. This is the entrance.

1st Cross:「イエスが死刑の宣告をうけたもう」
1st Cross: Jesus is condemned to death.

2nd Cross: 十字架おになって、これがいわゆる十字架の道行きになるわけで。
2nd Cross: Jesus bears the Cross, and thereby starts the Way of the Cross.

3rd Cross: （イエスははじめて倒れる）十字架の重さではじめて倒れられて、警備から鞭を打たれてますよ。　はい。
3rd Cross: (Jesus falls for the first time) He falls for the first time from the weight of the cross and is whipped by the guards.

4th Cross: 「マリア母にあいたもう」とね。
4th Cross: "Chris meets His Mother."

5th Cross: 「シモンに助力をうけたもう」イエスに変わって、シモンが十字架をしおってる。
5th Cross: "Receives help from Simon the Cyrene." Simon takes the Cross for Jesus.

6th Cross: 「イエズスおんかにうつしたもう」
6th Cross: "Veronica wipes the face of Jesus."

7th Cross: 「イエスが再び倒れたもう」
7th Cross: "Jesus falls for the second time."

8th Cross: 「エルサレムのふじんをなぐさめたま」
8th Cross: "Jesus speaks to the daughters of Jerusalem."

9th Cross: 「三たび倒れたもう」
9th Cross: "Jesus falls for a third time."

10th Cross: 「おんこうろうもはがれたもう」さて次が、十字架に。。。
10rh Cross: "Jesus is stripped of his garments." Next is the Cross...

11th Cross: 。。。十字架に貼付けられる訳でしてね。　釘て止められるという。　惨い姿ですよ。　「イエズス十字架に釘付けられたもう」とあります。
11th Cross:.. He is nailed to the Cross. It is a tragic sight. It is written "Jesus is nailed to the cross."

12th Cross: 十字架上でなくなられるわけです。　
12th Cross: He passes away on the Cross.

13th Cross: 「十字架からおろされましたもう」
13th Cross: "Jesus is taken down from the Cross."

14th Cross: 「墓にほうむられる」
14th Cross: "Jesus is buried in the sepulcher."

泉さん：これまでが十字架の道行きですよ。　１４名ね。　そして、これが、復活の姿なんです。　
Mr. Izumi: Up to here was the Way of the Cross. 14 stations. And this is His resurrected form.

35:12

泉さん：じゃここで。。。　この上の、これはヨハネ五島です。　そしてこの位置が牢屋なんですよ。　でここに、先ほどの、楠原が３３名、ここから３０名、ここ水の裏っていいますね。　３０名。　そして、後で、出て参ります。　姫島、これから１８名。　これはこの牢に移された。　ええ、水の裏、キュウザブロウという、ま、当時のちょうかたの、やしきあとなんですね。　でここの迫害の特徴は、まあ何処も牢に押し込められる、そして、役所、これは向こうの、ええ、これは修道院なんですが、この修道の向こうに役場がございます。　町の役場がね、でこっから、１．５キロぐらいありましょうか。　ここに引っ張られていって、そして、いわゆる、せめにあうわけです。　せめの方式は色々ありますがね、たたく、火をふところにいれる。　そして、水瓶から水をどんどん飲ませて、いっぱいなったら押さえて吐き出さす。　こういうのもあるわけでそ。　寒い日に海の中につき入れるというね。　で最後一番厳しいのは、さんぎの上に乗せる。　ね、こういう刑を受けるわけです。　でここの迫害のいまひとつは特徴は、家からこう牢に入れられます。　家の中空っぽですから、まず、家財、家具、家畜、これ全部とられるんですよ、土地もね、空っぽですから。　その上にここの特徴の一つは、てんぷせん、穴明き銭を、これバカの承知、穴が開いてる、それで安もんと言う意味ね。　そのてんぽせんを二三本投げ入れて、家の中に、で、「お前の土地は俺が買った」。　後で裁判なってから、金はって、「俺払ったよ」って言える様な条件をつけて、土地を奪ってる例があるんですね。　そういう厳しい迫害があったんです。　ま、これでも迫害に負けなかった訳なんですから。　ま、迫害を耐えたと言う象徴として、ヨハネ五島、をまつった訳でしょう。　

Mr. Izumi: Let's stand here. Above this is Johannes Goto. This location used to be a prison and there were 33 people from Kusunokibara, and 30 from here, which is called Mizunoura. Then later 18 people from Himejijima were transferred to the prison here. Mizunoura was located in the place of the former house of Kyusaburo, the elder at the time. In all the persecutions people would be shoved into prisons but the persecution here had a unique point. Beyond the monastery over there was a town hall about 1.5 km from here. Some of the prisoners would be pulled out to this town hall and then assaulted or tortured. There were many different types of torture. For instance, they would be hit or they would place fire on their chests. Also the would force them to drink loads of water and then when they were full, they would press on them to make them regurgitate. Other methods would be to throw them into the ocean on a really cold day. The most severe method was to put them on a "Sangi" (basically a spear chair). These were the types of punishments they received. The unique aspect of this persecution was that since they were taken from their homes and put into prison, their houses would be empty so first, their household goods, furniture, and livestock would all be taken away, even their land. On top of this, they would take "Tenpunsen" the coins with holes in them, which used to be the symbol of stupidity because there was a hole in it which meant it was cheap, and they would take these coins and threw 2 or 3 into their houses saying "I bought your land." Even if they were taken to court later, they would do this so as to impose a condition under which they could say "I already paid" even if they were essentially stealing the land. So these were the kinds of severe persecution they underwent. Even so they did not give in to the persecution so as a symbol of their strength and endurance, they have put Johannes Goto here.

泉さん：あれ水の裏湾ですね、出口がわからないので、私もわからない。　はい、向こうの白い広大があります。　あそこに弘法大師空海がの島にあがったと言う伝説。　本当じゃありませんでしょうね。　であの島の手前にちょっと火がみえましょう？　これくらいの石のせきがたってますね。　あれは遣唐使の火です。　この湾に入ってという記録があります。　で湾の入り口に火がありますね。　でそれはのちほど言いますが、しぜんふどきと言う。。。（かけてください）

Mr. Izumi: That is the rear gulf, I can't tell where the water enters and exit from. Over there is a large white section. That is where the Kobo Daishi, also known as Kukai landed on this Island, but it is probably just a legend. Can you see a little bit of a fire in front of that island? There is a rock about this high there. That is the fire of the Kentoshi (officials that travelled to China during the Tang dynasty from Japan). There are records of them coming in through that gulf and there is a fire at the entrance of the gulf. I will talk more of the old records left in this province from then... (cut off)

Cut 39:11

Cut 40:51

泉さん：。。。で建っとりますが、木造でね、でこれが建ったのが、昭和４６年。　新しいんですよ。　まあ神父さんははっそうなのかね、非常に新しい作りですよ。　
Mr. Izumi: ... is built, this church is made of wood and was erected in Showa 46, around 1969 so it is relatively new. Maybe the priest has a modern sense but the build is very new in style.

直矢：で前の建物は、別の教会と同じ様な感じでしたんですか？
Naoya: So was the old church built pretty much in the same style as the other ones?

泉さん：そうです、前の建物は、今のごりんと教会みたいにね、内部はリヴ・ヴォルトの。　これ折り上げでも何でもない訳。　屋根ごとをね、きったばりおとした。　そういう天井で。　　ここでしばらく足をひきましょう。　
Mr. izumi: Yes, the old church was much like the Golinto Church. The inside was completely Rivo Vaulte, no "fold up" style in the roof. Let us rest our legs here for a moment.

41:49

直矢：前の教会と同じですか？
Naoya: Are those the same as the church before?

泉さん：これは多分そうだと思うんです。　これは十字架のみちですね。 １４枚のね。　
Mr. Izumi: I think so, it is the 14 Stations of the Cross.

泉さん：絵が。。。　キリストは何をしてるんでしょ？
Mr. Izumi: In the pictures, what is Christ doing?

Kirk: あ、はい、サクリファイス
Kirk: Yes, the sacrifice.

42:41

泉さん：違った事が二つあるんですよ。　一つはここたけと言うんだけど。　ここの信者の方々は、浦上から来てるんですね。　あそこは四回のあたって迫害があってますが、でそれぞれ浦上一番崩れ、二番崩れとですね、三番、四番崩れと言うのが、例のあの、全国に流された、だから浦上の旅というでしょ？　金沢はんに５００名、津和野はんに１６０名というね、で一番南は薩摩はんにも１５０名ほど。　全部分けて、流してるわけです。　でその数は３４１４名とこれは浦上天主堂のあの門の前にあります。　浦上の旅と言うあれがね、規律が。　３４１４名と書いてありますが、それぞれ本によって違うんですこれね。　ただ、その、殉職されたのは６６３名ですか。　の人が旅の途中になくなった訳。　これが最後ですが、二番崩れというのは天保１０年におきてますがね、６０名ほどの人が、なんですか、しょくたくぎんと言うんだけど、密告すると、金がもらえる。　これが神父様でしたら、その頃、３００両もらえた。　最初は３０両。　段々神父の数が少なくなるにしたがって、その報奨金が多くなる。　それによって、ほとんどかりだされてるんですよ。　で１６０名の人が牢に入ったのを、ますだつつのすけと言う人が、１３べんに渡って、奉行に申請してるんですね。　お願いを、嘆願書を解き放しなさいと。　と奉行もとうとうこんがつきて、解き放してるんですよ。　解放してる。　その人達が、ここに来た。　はい。　そして、解き放したますだつつのすけ、この人は長崎でなくなりましたが、その子孫もここに来てます。　この町できょういくちょうされたんですがね。　じゃなぜその人はそんな事をできたのか。　なんと長州藩、わかりますか、長州藩？　中国地方の、山口県、島根県、一体をりょうした、はんしが、長州藩。　あの、かつら小五郎がそうでしょ？　日本人わかる？　そこのますだの、ええ、かろうだ？　先祖がね。　やっぱそう言う誇りがね、さしたんじゃないかと、思うんです。　普通の人ならできませんよ。　奉行にたいしてね、「あんた、信者を解放しなさい」なんて、１３べん目やったら打ち首じゃない？　それをやれたというのはやっぱり、かろうと言う人のね、そう言うきんじ、ま、誇りというに、があったんじゃないの？　で救われたんですね。　でいまひとつあるんです、ええ、きしゅくから流れて来て、ここもやっぱり迫害があったんです。　で牢屋がその奥の方にありますけどね、今日はちょっと通れません。　え、そこにですね、６０何名の人がつながれてるんですね、それを当時の代官が救ってるんですよ。　松園かそじと言う、２５歳の若い代官ですがね。　でもちろん、政府の命令だから、一、二回は、役所によんで、そしてお前やめなさいと、言ってる訳です。　やめません。　まあそのまま、一回ずつ牢屋の中に入れてね、で思い切って解放して
る。

Mr. Izumi: There are two things that are different. One is just here. The believers here are mostly all from Urakami. Urakami was the place with four persecutions and each one is called the Urakami number one collapse (kuzure), number two collapse, 3, and 4. After the fourth "collapse", they were sent all exiled all over the country, the so called Urakami journey. In Kanazawa there were 500, in Tsuwano there were 160 people and the southmost place was Satsuma with 150 people. There were all separated and exiled. In total there were 3414 people and they are recorded in front of the Urakami church gate. Although it is written as 3414 people, there are different numbers according to different books but the number of people who died during this exile is 663 people. While that was during the last persecution, during the second persecution during Tempo 10, 1839, there was a system in which if you informed the government of any Kakure Kirishitan, you could received money. If it was a priest, you could receive 300 Ryo, it initially 30 Ryo but as the number of priests became fewer and fewer, the reward money increased because of this, almost all were discovered. At one point there were 160 in prison and a man named Tsutsunosuke Masuda, appealed 13 times to the magistrate's office to release them. Because of his persistence, they finally released them and the Kakure Kirishitan that were released came here. And the man who helped them, Tsutsunosuke Masuda died in Nagasaki, but his descendants also came here and one became the head of the board of education. So why was this person able to do this? Do you know the Choshu Han? The rulers of the Yamaguchi and Shimane prefectures of the Chugoku region. Katsura Gogoro (Kido Takayoshi) was the feudal lord. Do you know of him? There was a person from that area, Masuda who was a principal retainer of the Choshu domain who was an ancestor of Tsutsunosuke. So I think he probably had a sense of pride and honor which moved him to help the Kakure Kirishitans. A normal person would be able to go the magistrate and say "You should free the Christians." If they did 13 times, they would probably have been beheaded. The reason he was able to do so was probably because of his relation to Masuda. There was also one more thing, after being exiled here, there was also a persecution here. There is a prison over in that direction but we won't be able to pass by it today. There were 60 people who were put in the prison but were eventually freed by the local magistrate. His name was Kasoji Matsuzono and he was a young 25 year old. Of course, because he was ordered by the government to do so he would call the Kakure to the town hall and ask them to stop their practices. Since they did not stop he would have to put them in prison each time but then he would free them shortly after.

47:19

泉さん：さて、その人が誰と思います？
Mr. Izumi: Now, who do you think that person is?

直矢：その解放した人？
Naoya: The person who released the Kakure Kirishitan?

泉さん：日本のプロ野球の一つの球団がありますよ。　ヤクルト。　
Mr. Izumi: There is a Japanese pro baseball team called, Yakult.

直矢：ヤクルト？
Naoya: Yakult?

泉さん：おう、ヤクルトをつくった、松園ひさみと言う人は、その人のおじいさん。　だから、そういうあれがあった人だからね、孫だってしゃっとしてんじゃないの？　日本のヤクルトという会社をつくってね、飲み物の。　あれ今世界中に、アメリカにも支社がありますねんね？　ここはそういう事例があるんです。　だから、中心になる人が、そのキリシタンの迫害をあんまり強くやっていないから、じげの物が、あんまりいじめてない。　そういう所ですよ。　まあ五島のキリシタンが最初に復活した地ですからね、それを今からご覧をいただきますが。　はい、じゃ参りましょう。
Mr. Izumi: The person who founded Yakult, Matsuzono Hisami, his grandfather. So he was a person that was very upright, even his grandson is a proper person. He founded the Japanese company Yakult, which makes beverages. Now it is worldwide and even has a branch in the U.S. no? So there this place is a place with an interesting history. Because the central person did not persecute the Christians in a strong way, the other people did not mistreat them as well. It also happens to be the place were the Goto Island Christians first revived. We will now go see something related to this.

48:30 Cut

Kirk: ちょっと待ってね！

Kirk: Please wait a sec!

48:39 Cut

48:43 Cut

泉さん：いもをきって、かわかして、でんぷんにしたわけ。　で今いもをきった、みがいてかわかすと、カンコロモチ
Mr. Izumi: They would cut the potatoes and then dry them to make starch. If you cut the potato and polish it then dry it, it becomes "kankoromochi".

直矢：きですか？
Naoya: Is it a tree?

泉さん：うすく、これくらいにきってね。　だからこれ昔はね、いもをつくったからずーと、これが並んだわけですよ。　どうか、入りましょうか？　　
Mr. Izumi: They would cut them very thin like this. So in the past, if they made potatos, they would line them up all along here. Shall we go in?

Kirk: はーい。
Kirk: Ok.

泉さん：これお一人お一人でしょ？　元々はね。　あのねがんでしたから。　一体一体まつられてたわけです。　だから名前も（直矢：マリア）マリアかわばたたけ、と書いております。　所がここにきますね、川端家の墓になると、　いっきの中に何人も入るね。　こういう方の形式に変わったから、みんなこれがなくなってるでしょ？　だからかっては、福江島の、ゆうばえと言ったら、これが一番。　教会の、墓を置いて、向こうに沈む夕日をとったんですがね。　ところがもうとれんぞこんなのじゃまもも、いやじゃまものごめんなさい、だめですね、こんなこと言ったら。　お墓がみんな変わっちまったからさ。　
Mr. Izumi: These have one person per grave right? Originally they were all like this. One grave per body. So the names were also written on each one, such as Maria Kawabata. However if you come over here, there is the Kawabata family grave, and there are a number of people in one grave. If the types of graves are changed, this disappears doesn't it? On Fukue Island, the best sunset was here. The church graves were here and you could photograph the sun setting over there. But now these things, well not things, graves are in the way. Because they changed all of the graves.

Naoya: He was saying how this used to be the best place to view the sunset but now because of all these graves, you can't take a nice picture.

泉さん：向こうが、長崎ばな、はなっというのはずうと岬が突き出てるのを言うんですね。　あそこまでが、ゆうばえの道、先ほどの、じほんらいからね。　だから、日がおちる、その景観がとてもよかったわけだけども、こんなの。　これを集合「ばか」といいます。　ばかは本当の馬鹿じゃありませんよ。　集合「墓」ですね。　みんな馬鹿って言う意味じゃない。　
Mr. Izumi: Over there is the Nagasaki cape. The sunsets towards that direction. So the sun setting was a very beautiful view but now there are these assembled "baka". "Baka" as in grave not the other Japanese word "Baka". Assembled graves, not assembled idiots.

Kirk: Here's your hawk, right here.

泉さん：これが上五島の、ええかすらが島に行きますとのほとんどこのかたですよ、お一人お一人まつってるから。　でこれは写真とってますから、後でご覧くださいね。　
Mr. Izumi: This is the Kami-Goto style. If you go to Kasurajima, they are mostly in this style. Each person has their own grave. We have photos of these so please take a look at them later.

52:16

泉さん：え、そして向こう、はい。　あれがさがの島です。　さがのっていうのはどこにあるか知ってますか？　え？　ご存知ません？　京都にあるんですよ。　京都のさがのって言ったら、ふげたちの、きょじゅうふくだったの。　でそこの人達が平家滅亡の時に、逃れて来てあの島にすみづみて、ひらいたんです。　だから佐賀の島。　だから提供の落人の島になるわけで。　あの右側みてください。　あれぜっぺきなってますね。　あれは荒れた海がけずっていってるんですよ。　で左は先ほどの言った、めだけ、女だけ、３０メーター。　男の岳、ちょっと高いですよ、１５１メーター。　これが男岳。　で左側が、アスピーレ、タテジョウ火山、こんななだらかなこんな火山ね。　みぎがほまあて、うす上火山、の異質の火山が二つドッキングしてるわけ。　これは、日本他にござえませんね、こういうの。　世界でもイタリアにいかなならんといってますよ。　地質が非常に珍しいんので、よくあの学者の先生がおいでになりますがね。　
Mr. Izumi: So over there. That is the Saga Island. Do you know where Saga is? It is in Kyoto. It was the residence of the Fugetachi. During the Hira family downfall, they escaped to that island and started living there which is why it is now called the Island of Saga.
So it is the Island of fallen officials. Please take a look at the right side. There is a cliff that was carved out by the waves. On the left is the Female Mountain which is 30 meters. The male Mountain is 151 meters. One the left side is Aspite upright volcano, a volcano like this. On the right is a flat volcano. The two different types of volcanos are docked together. This is not found anywhere else in Japan. Even worldwide, only possibly in Italy. Because it is such a rare formation there are a lot of scientists that come to research it.

Naoya: Those are two types of volcanos and one of them comes up kind of flat and one that comes up just straight up and to have them the two of them side by side is really rare. Maybe possibly in Italy. Some special geological formation.

泉さん：だから二つの火山がこう丸く、このように、ドッキングしたわけですから。。。
Mr. Izumi: So the two volcanos docked together in this way...

54:19 Cut

泉さん：これは大正１３年ですから昭和の前にできた教会なんでがね。　この特色は、天井を見てください、これは平天井と言うんですよ。　あの、どこですか、あそこの、楠原（くすはら）の教会。　折り上げてましたね、こうまるくね。　ああいうのはないでしょ。　全部ひら、そのまんまたいらになってるん。　さいだんもこのらいはいよも、そとろうも全部そうですね。　ところが椿が咲いてますよ天井に。　でこの教会はね、今からです、このステンドグラスが夕日をあびると、ななめにこのへんまでひが入って来る。　赤や緑や青の光がね。　だから、四時、五時頃に来ると、ここに。　そういう教会なんです。　でさっき言った様に、隠れて信仰をしておった人達がもうそろそろ自分達も、本当の信仰に帰ろうと言うので、つくったわけですから。　非常に新しい訳。　

Mr. Izumi: This was built in Taisho 13 (1924) so it was built before the Showa era. The unique point of this church is in the roof. It is called the flat roof. At the Kusuhara Church, they had the fold up style didn't they? It was folded up roundly. They don't have that here do they? It is all flat throughout the building. But there are Tsubaki blossoming on the roof. Also this church, starting about now, the evening sun shines through stained glass windows diagonally all the way up to here. Red, green and blue lights. So if you come around 4 or 5 o'clock it would reach out to here. So these are the special points of this church. It was built by Kakure who saw others and thought that maybe they should also "return" to their religion. So it is fairly new(?).

56:12

泉さん：。。。さきほどいった、みいらくの教会、と、ここと、佐賀の島に一つありますね。　この教会も、日本の教会の中に入ってますよ。　というのは珍しいのは、普通は祭壇部にステンドグラスがあるんですね、あんなにね。　ないでしょここには。　玄関口にステンドグラスでしょ。　　でどういう事かと言うと、こちら側に、西があるんです。　だから、西の日が入るようになっとる。　でその背面にね、してる。　そういうめずらしい構成になってます。　まあ中はそう特別なあれはないですけどね。　
Mr. Izumi: ... I said earlier there is a church in Miraku, here and Island of Saga. This church is also included among the churches of Japan. The thing that is rare in this church is that usually there is a stained glass window above the alter section, but here there isn't. There is one at the entrance isn't there? This is because that is the west side. So they wanted the western light to shine in. They have that backing the church. So it is a somewhat rare composition. The stained glass itself does not have any special qualities however.

57:13 Cut
泉さん：。。。とってください。　
Mr. Izumi: Please take some photos.

57:14 Cut

直矢：ここの教会の設計は誰が？
Naoya: Who designed this church?

泉さん：設計はわかりません。　これはテツカワさんには関係してませんね。　誰の設計かわかりません。
Mr. Izumi: We don't know who designed it but it is not Testukawa san. We don't know who it is.

57:37 Cut

泉さん：とえじゃない、たんすほじゃないかと思います。　ちょっと後て見てみましょう。　段々時代が進むと屋根がこういう風に二層になってきますね。　ここは一層じゃないかと思うんですよ。　
Mr. Izumi: ... Let's take a look. As you progress in periods, the roof changes from a one fold to two fold. I think this is a one-fold.

 

 

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Copyright © 2006 Brendan Eagan